Can Someone PLEASE Clarify The Question About 2016 Age Divisions???

slounello · Guru

Can Someone PLEASE Clarify The Question About 2016 Age Divisions???

jreel · Grand Poobah

That topic has been discussed by board members but has not been a board member agenda item that has been officially deliberated. It has its proponents and opponents and discussions can also move to subtler and smaller adjustments. Safe to say it will be the same ages for 2016. I am for one would like to examine the GM and player impacts more closely. Jreel

The_Hurricane · Grand Poobah

I'm with Steve. I think 30-40-50 is the way to go. We have a HUGE gap between 18 and 33 now and with only a couple of waivers in the 33 for 30-32, it's a pretty steep incline.

Even then, the 33 division to 45 is nearly as steep. Moving to 30-40-50, IMO, improves the competition in each division.

Also, makes the creation of a 60+ a whole lot easier.

The board has a real chance for some bold choices and improvements going forward.

DP · Senior Member

I think this will tear many existing teams apart. And.... what about uniforms, will I get 10 for my old shirt and pay 40 for a new one, some teams have equipment, hows will that work out? There will be a lot of dealing and to end up with unbalanced teams anyway, .... Maybe a gradual 1 year at a time adjustment may work , if you have to do it.

-- Edited by DP on Wednesday 9th of September 2015 04:15:15 PM

Marcus Aurelius · Two Star Guru

So after a long hiatus, here I am back here in the interest of both transparency and clarification.
Firstly ~ it is NOT a safe bet that the age divisions won't change... Look at the national site or just use this thing called Google and see if you can find any other adult men's league in the country that has such disjointed age groupings... Go ahead, find just one ~ if you can.
Waivers have been nothing but head aches and heart aches for everyone from every perspective there is and I agree absolutely that they need to be eliminated completely. You are either an age or you are not, how is that hard to understand?
John Reel does control several votes on the board and there are some stalling tactics already in play for delaying it based upon the idea we need "market research" type of stuff done first ~ BEFORE we even vote!
Nonsense and nothing but a stalling tactic as we all know who is what age and especially the upper tier quality players who are well known to us all... The VERY few who at the advanced age of 40 and up who come into the league out of the blue are VERY rarely, if ever, true game changers, or even impact players...
Again, if people do not know the lay of the baseball land in the capital region then they should not be on the board...
And yet we have ALL been voted in...
I would venture to say that this is where there needs to be more involvement from the younger guys as there is a significant issue when Lex and I are the youngest ones on the Board ~ as we are NOT exactly young...
This is "in-your-face" as the primary stumbling block here is that the older guys do not want to get aged out...
And quite frankly, most think they play ball way better than they actually do... They need to be aged out...
Or else as Rob says, a new 60 division perhaps... That failed a few years ago because again, most of the older guys wanted to believe they are still viable to play in the younger divisions and all they mostly do is make it miserable and cluttered for guys of the "right" age who actually belong in the given age group...
Guys under 55 always have an age group to move up to, but then those guys don't and as we dwindle in numbers for obvious reasons (we die or whatever else happens in life) ~ guys still want to play. Perfectly Understandable and we will all be there one day ~ yet at what expense to the rest of the league?
And hence the "politics" of how the "stalling tactics" are being played and so simply because they are the group that would feel alienated now... And every board member except Lex and I are over 55, except maybe Tommy Smith as well...
Anyways, my suggestion is that some younger, more progressive minds actually do something and run for the board and to make the obvious changes that need to be made other than just talking?
Otherwise it will likely continue to be the same old board members and John Reel doing the same old things...
Kinda like on Labor Day when I got rid of my 30 year olds and Bones did not. Then when he told me he had one left I said no. He then went to Reel who essentially over ruled me and said he could play. I knew it was a bad idea, but so it went...
And all hell broke loose...
I am ALL for ages being what they are ~ and the waivers have been NOTHING but issues all the way around, yet we continue to act like they are a solution to anything?
They are not...
And it needs to change now...
And this Board member is able, ready, and willing to make that happen and end this bs...
But I am just one guy...
And need help...

wanewcomb · Veteran Member

Mark, what rubbish. What makes you think the younger- the more progressive? Progressive in what way? Disposing of the very people who built and maintained this league for the last 25 years? Your compassion for those whose skills have diminished, because of age, is heartwarming to a point of being almost maniacal. Why 30, 40 and 50 is so progressive compared to 45 and 55 is beyond me. I agree waivers don't work but the answer is not to make it impossible for the older guys to play. When you say you want to make the league better, I think we all shudder. It feels like a Joe McCarthy moment. You are dangerous for this league and everything it has stood for. I used to like to read your posts. I initially thought you might be good for the league, a fresh breath of air, but I was wrong. You are the greatest threat this league has ever seen. I hope others will join me in speaking out. Try working with John and company and be smart enough not to try to create a "better league" by getting rid of those that are older. One day you'll reach an age where you're not so good,and having seen you play that day is not to far away, and you'll know how it feels. It is really a shame that you give the older board members so little respect.

jreel · Grand Poobah

This topic ( of shifting age divisions) will be on the agenda at the next board meeting. a vote could occur. I stand corrected that anything is a "safe bet" , I was out of line in offering that up. The next board meeting is not set up a this time as we look for compatible dates in the next month.

EJR56 · Guru

Well said Wayne.

Ed Rogers

MARIO31 · Senior Member

30-40-50 like the National...it just makes sense!!!!

MARIO31 · Senior Member

I'm not for pushing anyone out of the league and the game we all love!!! I think that a player in his mid 40's (42,43,44) has a disadvantage against a 30 yr old player. Let's level the playing field for all and do what's best for the whole league and go 30,40 and 50. Id imagine there are some 55 plus guys that hate the thought of being phased out of the 45 Division because I feel that way as a 48 year old in the 30 Division playing with guys still in the Twilight League. I can hold my own but it is not easy! Let's at least think about it for the CDMSBL as a whole!

wanewcomb · Veteran Member

It only makes sense if you're on the underside of 50. Suppose we start a sixty league and give field preference to the older guys who have been in the league longer. How's that sound?

DamnYankee1057 · Newbie

Just so everyone knows, the board has never even thought about getting rid of the 55 division. Even if we were to go to 30,40,50 divisions. Of course we would have to work on what day,and what kind of field availability there is. But right now, it is just being talked about. I for sure am on the older side of it all. But instead of looking out for our own agenda, let's do what is best for the entire league. The league has always been set up for a place for everyone to play. No one is trying to force anyone out of playing. so to us older guy's, we will have a place to play.

Steve Van Gelder

wanewcomb · Veteran Member

Steve won't there be a problem with securing fields for 4 leagues? On any account, age changes are not the problem, parity is, and I don't see how lowering the age in the various divisions will help solve that, and it certainly is a detriment for the older players ability to play in two leagues.

ctucker · Senior Member

To the guys who keep citing "national" to argue in favor of going to 30/40/50, can you provide some source for that position? The MSBL national rules begin by saying the league was started for men 18, 25, 35, 45, and 55.... To my knowledge there is not a single national MSBL tournament with a 40+ age division. And while a very quick survey of leagues around the country shows that 10-year division differences are common (typically 25/35/45), there are indeed examples of larger differences (see Houston, Long Island, Westchester, Bux-Mont). But more interesting than any of this is the fact that virtually none of these other leagues have as many teams as we do. Houston, for example, is a vastly larger populated region, with the same 18/30/45/55 divisions that we have, but we have twice as many teams. That we have that many guys who want to play, and want to play in multiple divisions, should be in my view of paramount importance to whatever decision is made (which, just for the record, I have no strong opinion about, at least at the moment).

Curt Tucker

MARIO31 · Senior Member

Once again I am not advocating hurting the over 50 guys. There are some awesome over 50 players who can play in any division! If you are a talented player you can play with anyone. The gap between 30-45 is where the issue lies. I have guys on my 30 and over team who are in this age group and they feel they are better suited to not face 30 yr olds. Does 30-40-50 and 55+ sound bad? Trying to find something that won't hurt any players is the key!

DP · Senior Member

So.... how does this all break down the 45 division teams? Do they go 40 or 50... and how many players do they lose. Go to 40 and the older guys drop because of the age difference to the 40-44 guys, and will there be a 50 team to go to? Jump to 50 division and lose the 45-49 players, where do they go ..... NEED PLAYERS EITHER WAY... No--- I did not just answer the previous question..we all know how teams recruit ,personalities, positions and so on. I guess some have it all set up already so they don't care about the other teams.

pkw1217 · Three Star Guru

Mark,
You are the best.The last line of you're post says it all.

Marcus Aurelius · Two Star Guru

Curt ~ Here is link to the National Site with all the listings... Ft Worth has only a 25 + and a 40+ and much as the national site says, most of the leagues who even have multiple divisions are 25, 35, 45, and VERY few, sparse 55's... The 10-year increments are uniform almost across the board and yet each geographic area obviously has number considerations and whatever other idiosyncratic issues that may come into play... It all started here before you came into the league when our 25's folded and then a couple years later we went from 35's to 30's (neverminding it is ridiculously called the 33's as 5 waivers to 30 and up obviously makes it a 30)... Yeah Stevie, it's 5 waivers, not 4...

And yes, In our specific case here in the capital region, yes, of course we should be grateful to those who started the league (Dennis Schemeca (sp?) and the other guys) and John Reel for helping it to grow as it has since he came into it the next year after. The point is we have grown to the extent that no other league in the country has...

And realignment is necessary ~ Again.

The 45's have wayyyyy too many unnecessary teams who have no business playing in the division and significant trouble fielding 9 guys at games which creates total havoc for everyone...

Parity is a pipe dream and there will ALWAYS be top teams...

And then there will be the rest...

Just like in any league at any level...

At least the rest can field 9 guys if they have more guys added to the pool of players and consolidation is the obvious solution...

Even though some will have their poor little old feelings hurt over it, you can't keep everyone happy all the time...

And the time for the change is now as again, WHY exactly would we wait to make the change that is obviously going to be made?

I have not heard a single rational reason as to why we would/should wait and I think all see this inevitable...

Kinda like trying to hold back gay marriage...

It's here whether you like it or not and swing the bat that way or not ~ so you can either jump on the train and love them like your brother or get run over by the locomotive...

This is obvious at this stage as ironically, I am much like you Curt in that I have no particular personal stake in this since it makes zero difference to me personally and will play wherever I fit anyways... Plus I know guys of all ages and at levels of play and will adjust accordingly...

I am simply promoting what I see as the clear best thing for the league to do from an overall standpoint...

And if others do not think so, then vote for somebody else to be on the board and do me the favor as this is way more headache than it is worth more often than not... I am perfectly ok with that too. Heck, I may not even run again as I am seriously questioning why so many others have been one and done in the past and see EXACTLY why... Again > obvious to a duck... Even an Alabama duck...

Just like the Labor day tourney as it is now likely defunct... And certainly as it has been known anyways...

Or not ~ as again, who am I to say?

Other than one who sees that as equally obvious...

But that's another topic for another day...

Not today...
Today I have my baby and she is what matters...
This is all just fodder for fun...
And it ain't much fun at the moment...
Anyways, it will work out as it does ~ and we can all make our own personal choices from there...
In the meantime, I am back to my hiatus as much with facebook, it is healthy to take breaks from here as well...
Not sure when that break becomes permanent, but it will happen to us all, one way or the other...
That's the only "sure thing"...
Peace...
www.msblnational.com/Find-a-League.html

-- Edited by Marcus Aurelius on Thursday 10th of September 2015 09:18:58 AM

johnc · Grand Poobah

OK

Let's steer this thread in a positive direction.

It is clear that there is some discussion to be had about this subject. There are some issues / concerns to address such as field availability (such as would 40's and 50's both play Sundays?) If so would there be enough fields? Would there be attendance issues due to guys playing in two divisions?

That is just an example of some of the logistics that would be involved. Another would be what happens to the 48 year old who has played 4 years with a 45 team that goes into the 50's ... will he be grandfathered in??

We need to know the answers to the logistical questions ... and like any change there will be those who like it and those who dislike it.

As one of the board members I am interested in hearing all of the pros and cons / feedback / answers to the logistical questions.

dp33 · Veteran Member

Stevie L.
When you add those 4 -5 waiver players, let the division know asap who the 4 - 5 guys who will be replaced to make room for them..!! The rest of our division can use ANY Giant castoffs...!!

sfgiants · Hall of Famer

Re: fields: We lost the 25 Division, which means we went from 5 divisions (18, 25, 35, 45, 55) to 4 divisions (18, 33, 45, 55). So if we added another division to once again have 5 divisions (18, 30, 40, 50, 55) , can someone tell us how that will impact fields/schedules since we once had 5 divisions and enough fields/dates to accommodate.

I have to believe there are other fields out there for us if we were to expand; we just need to solicit.

Here's a thought that may or may not make sense:
All 4 or 5 division commissioners along with ALL GMs sit down with a calendar for the baseball season. Perhaps as early as mid-January. Consider playing on all 7 days and plug in games in which everyone plays both weekday and weekend games - weighted by preference, but some flexibility a must. We don't play on Saturdays for the most part. Schedule one game for each divisional team on a Saturday morning. Just one. Then don't schedule those teams on the following Sunday. That will open up the other 6 days.

I realize some guys don't want to play one or the other, but truth be told, how many of the players overall make all of their games anyway? If you have a roster of 15, all you need is 10, including a pitcher and catcher. (I say 10 for several reasons). Also, since you are meeting in January, there is plenty of notice that your team is going to play on a given day all summer. You can plug in the fields later if necessary. Obviously, we need a list of available fields when you meet. But that shouldn't be difficult.

Intertwine the divisions. Let's say on a given Sunday, there is a 33 game, a 45 game and a 55 game at New Scotland. That gives guys a chance to meet other players and also aids in the recruiting process. It can be a mix of any age groups. At Bob Moore, schedule a weekday 45 game followed by an 18 game ('cause 18-year-olds can see under those lights; many 45s struggle). Rotate the schedule accordingly until the playoffs begin, then perhaps you can get more rigid in the scheduling.

I'm sure there are some logistical hoops to tweak, including consideration of guys who play in more than one division. But that's why you have all the GMs of all divisions sit down together. (That alone will bring the league closer). Perhaps something to dwell on?

(There is also software to do the scheduling, too. Then just tweak the results).

jimk

slounello · Guru

DP - oh heeeeeell no, that's the beauty of the Waiver guys........I get to be served my big chocolate cake and I get to eat it too.........I'll hit 18 quality guys and I'll throw J. J. Pearsall once a week and never lose a game. I'm really starting to like this waiver thing. My roster would remain in tact - just add the waiver bonus babies.

And now, back to the real world..........everyone has made sound and valid points/auguments. If nothing else happens..........at least drop the waiver thing............if you're not 21, you're not allowed to drink alcohol - you don't get a waiver because you're a really good drinker or because AA needs another customer.........

I'm sure the Board will figure it out.

Signed

Forest

The_Hurricane · Grand Poobah

sfgiants wrote:

Re: fields: We lost the 25 Division, which means we went from 5 divisions (18, 25, 35, 45, 55) to 4 divisions (18, 33, 45, 55). So if we added another division to once again have 5 divisions (18, 30, 40, 50, 55) , can someone tell us how that will impact fields/schedules since we once had 5 divisions and enough fields/dates to accommodate.

I have to believe there are other fields out there for us if we were to expand; we just need to solicit.

Here's a thought that may or may not make sense:
All 4 or 5 division commissioners along with ALL GMs sit down with a calendar for the baseball season. Perhaps as early as mid-January. Consider playing on all 7 days and plug in games in which everyone plays both weekday and weekend games - weighted by preference, but some flexibility a must. We don't play on Saturdays for the most part. Schedule one game for each divisional team on a Saturday morning. Just one. Then don't schedule those teams on the following Sunday. That will open up the other 6 days.

I realize some guys don't want to play one or the other, but truth be told, how many of the players overall make all of their games anyway? If you have a roster of 15, all you need is 10, including a pitcher and catcher. (I say 10 for several reasons). Also, since you are meeting in January, there is plenty of notice that your team is going to play on a given day all summer. You can plug in the fields later if necessary. Obviously, we need a list of available fields when you meet. But that shouldn't be difficult.

Intertwine the divisions. Let's say on a given Sunday, there is a 33 game, a 45 game and a 55 game at New Scotland. That gives guys a chance to meet other players and also aids in the recruiting process. It can be a mix of any age groups. At Bob Moore, schedule a weekday 45 game followed by an 18 game ('cause 18-year-olds can see under those lights; many 45s struggle). Rotate the schedule accordingly until the playoffs begin, then perhaps you can get more rigid in the scheduling.

I'm sure there are some logistical hoops to tweak, including consideration of guys who play in more than one division. But that's why you have all the GMs of all divisions sit down together. (That alone will bring the league closer). Perhaps something to dwell on?

(There is also software to do the scheduling, too. Then just tweak the results).

jimk

This is the best, most sane and logical post in this discussion. I would add that the commissioners should make "agendas" and give them to the managers before the meeting so we can ensure all relevant topics are covered.

Steve S · Senior Member

It seems simpler to me than everyone is making this out to be. Why must we add a division just because we change the age groupings. Why not just switch from 18-33-45-55 to 18-30-40-50??? AND- end all waivers! The size of the entire player pool is actually kind of finite. Players will all migrate to the appropriate divisions just as they do now, regardless of where you make the cutoffs. So why complicate things? Keep it simple. Parity is an impossibility in this league unless you institute a draft, which will not happen, nor am I in favor of it. No matter how you align the age groups, there will always be top teams and bottom teams, and those of us somewhere in the middle.
Am I way off base here?
Steve Schaefer

DP · Senior Member

MIGRATE? ARE YOU GUARANTYING A TEAM FOR ALL?

Steve S · Senior Member

No. I ain't guaranteeing anything. Just saying that nothing will change regardless of the age groups. I don't see managers of cohesive teams chucking their 52 year old friends to pick up a 42 year old. If your manager wants to push you off the team in favor of a younger guy, do you really want to still play for them? So you'll still have players old enough to play in the 50's playing in the 40's, and players in their 40's playing in the 30's and so forth. It doesn't matter one bit how you group us. Just make the groups in 10 year increments. 35-45-55 or 30-40-50 without waivers. Doesn't matter. It's all semantics.

jaythejetfan · Member

30-40-50. Done.

I played in the 25+ as a 38-year-old in 2012 - which is gone. Then in 2014, I started to play in the new 33+. I was hoping it would still be 35+. But no, this now 41-year-old is always in the middle of the ever changing age-division filled with all these waivers that do nothing but unbalance age-appropriate teams. Don't get me wrong - I've been on the receiving end of an "extra" wavier because our team in '14 was awful - which then extended to other teams.

Some consistency needs to be in place and stay in place. 30-40-50 should be it. Yes, players age. If they can play down, great. If not, sorry... I mean, I would qualify for 40+ next year. But I think I proved I still can play with the young bucks - and if my arm holds up, I will continue to pile up my Ks at the younger level. But I don't know if I want to deal with the BS of the waivers anymore. A truly balanced division would only make the games more interesting. Yes, some teams will dominate - but it won't be due to the young-ringer brought it. If an older team wants to stay down, they might not do as well. But that is their choice.

Goldberg #41

-- Edited by jaythejetfan on Friday 11th of September 2015 04:35:06 PM

The_Hurricane · Grand Poobah

jaythejetfan wrote:

30-40-50. Done.

I played in the 25+ as a 38-year-old in 2012 - which is gone. Then in 2014, I started to play in the new 33+. I was hoping it would still be 35+. But no, this now 41-year-old is always in the middle of the ever changing age-division filled with all these waivers that do nothing but unbalance age-appropriate teams. Don't get me wrong - I've been on the receiving end of an "extra" wavier because our team in '14 was awful - which then extended to other teams.

Some consistency needs to be in place and stay in place. 30-40-50 should be it. Yes, players age. If they can play down, great. If not, sorry... I mean, I would qualify for 40+ next year. But I think I proved I still can play with the young bucks - and if my arm holds up, I will continue to pile up my Ks at the younger level. But I don't know if I want to deal with the BS of the waivers anymore. A truly balanced division would only make the games more interesting. Yes, some teams will dominate - but it won't be due to the young-ringer brought it. If an older team wants to stay down, they might not do as well. But that is their choice.

Goldberg

41

SANITY

MARIO31 · Senior Member

Well said Jay...well said!!!

DP · Senior Member

Why is 30,40,50 the only option for consistency ? 35,45,55 ?