i wonder if its time we instituted division-wide drafts here?
i got the idea today after i heard through the grapevine that at least two teams from last year, one in the 35s and one in the 45s, are folding. one of those clubs was a top playoff team last season.
now, i don't know for a fact that that's so, but my sources are fairly good. and, actually, i sense there may be more than two teams folding in these two divisions. if i'm wrong, my apologies and i'd hope someone would correct me.
if i'm right, as a co-manager in 2012 of a 45 team, i'd like to learn which teams will not be back and which players are available. but i'm getting ahead of myself.
folding teams present us with problems and until now i think, unintentionally, we've not had a fixed, fair, democratic way of dealing with that.
an open draft may be one way to do that.
at least every other year, and maybe more often, one or more teams in each age division fold. that happens for lots of reasons: sometimes it's too many losses, other times, players get older and they move on; or the players and chemistry on teams change; or managers move away and no one is left to guide the team, etc. etc. we've even had championship teams fold from one year to the next.
but there are at least two problems when teams fold.
for starters, groups of players get unleashed, left to fend for themselves in the league. if they hope to play the following season, they sometimes have to call one manager after another, and that's not only time-consuming, it can also result in bad matches: for example, a player can hook up with the first manager who takes him, and he'd actually be a better fit for another manager, whom he'd not yet called.
of course, the worst thing for some guys is that suddenly they're facing the prospect of no baseball for the season.
for the teams, it can be tricky too: it's not uncommon for the better players who are suddenly free to call the managers of the teams that traditionally finish in the top five and ask to be taken on. (or managers who are "in the know" about the folded team to make such calls to the top freed players.) taking on a good player from a folded team can seem like a no-brainer for top teams.
except for this: all of this is done in the dark, not intentionally but still pretty much in secret. and that doesn't always help the team the player is going to (players may say: "we got a new catcher? but we like our old guy.") nor does it help the other managers who didnt know of the new free agents, and so who had no chance to bid on them.
one result of that is that the top teams keep filling their ranks with all-stars while the lower teams are left to struggle as best they can. another result is that some guys from those disbanded teams may get left off a squad altogether and find themselves forced to post their names on the bulletin board or to keep making those time-consuming phone calls, to try get a spot.
(a connected point here: the web site's free agent posting is puzzling to me. we have on the front page of our website a "waiver wire 2012" with names of guys who are looking for teams and then, in the 45 division, at least, a "free agent" wire for what looks like the same thing, but with different names. i would think it makes more sense to have one headline, waiver or free agent, in one spot on the front page. certainly, if we have a draft, that would be crucial.)
to remedy this confusion, and bring all the free agents and dealings out in the light, and save everybody lots of time making calls, i'd suggest not only the lone free agent heading on page one of the website, but an annual draft, every december or january, where managers in each age division can bid on the players they'd like. bidding would be in the reverse order from teams that finished last in the previous years' standings to the ones that finished first. for the 2012 season, we could hold our first draft sometime in mid-january, i'd think.
draft offers are merely a bid (not with money obviously). the offers would go from the various managers to the players, with a statement of teams plans for the upcoming season (how they're trying to improve) and how each would hope to use the players.
the players then would have two weeks to accept or reject the offers. if they reject them, or simply don't reply to the bid, they can then, on their own, call the managers of the teams they'd like to play for and see if a deal can be worked out.
all this is just a suggested format and i suspect it can be improved on. my point is that with an annual draft everyone would know over the winter who's available; every manager would have the chance to bid on players, and every team would, in theory, have a chance to improve.
if the draft helps strengthen every team, then in theory the league as a whole would benefit: games should become more competitive, more guys should be happier about playing on the teams that want them, and fewer teams should fold.
an added possible advantage is that the draft could encourage managers to take all the players out there who are free and not leave any undrafted.
i'd like to hear any reactions guys have to a draft.
-mike
-- Edited by mhart on Wednesday 14th of December 2011 07:05:37 PM
I am not sure if any teams are folding in any division at this time. I know we have had some managerial changes but that is all at this time.
The Free agent lists or Waiver Wire lists will be updated asap so that names are not different. When a name is presented to me its posted on the web site.
What we as a league may try is to forward any new player emails to the managers of a division and they can decide if they want the player or not? This way all managers have the same chance to pick up the guy.
As for a draft it has been talked about since I joined the league 7 years ago. I know for example playing in the 18's, 25's and now 35's that the younger divisions would never go for this as players want to play with certain teams or managers because they are friends with them. Its hard for a league to force players to play for a team if they dont want to.
As a manager I take pride in recruiting players from outside the league to join our league and to play for my Frozen Ropes Outlaws team in the 25 division. It is my job as the manager to bring in the best talent that will gel with my existing players and give us the best chance to win the division title.
Other managers please chime in on your thoughts about a league wide draft?
I have heard talk off an on about a draft since i started playing again four or five years ago.
Just imagine the manager / player conflicts if people had to play on certain teams ..... it would be an absolute nightmare in many instances.... and there would be more arguments, complaining and player movement every off season.
If you get drafted by a team and don't like it your options are to suck it up and play or quit.
As a manager what happens if you draft someone and they turn out to be a troublemaker on the bench? .... can you get rid of them during or after the season?
In many ways there is a "draft" of sorts every off season now that we have free agency ..... i know for a fact that many of my players on the 45 Dodgers have been approached by other managers.... and fortunately most like the changes we have made and the direction we are heading and decided to stay on. I have approached players in the league to see if they had any interest in moving ........ this free movement leads to people playing with managers and team mates that they like ... not that they are forced to play with.
On top of that this league has always been structured as a place for GM's and managers to put a team together and join our league .... and after hearing all of the arguments on both sides i agree wholeheartedly that it works well and a draft wouldn't work.
I do think if several teams fold that an open tryout for any interested players and managers might be a good idea.... maybe even if teams dont fold a tryout / workout may be a good idea to
-- Edited by johnc on Thursday 15th of December 2011 06:53:34 AM
I don't think the draft idea will work either. Well, at least not for players that have been in the league for some time. Guys that have been in the league for awhile are going to want to play with former teammates and on teams that they feel comfortable. The other option is for players of folded teams to form their own teams and bringing in new players. The draft will reduce the formation of new teams. Take the 35 Dodgers for instance, They came from a combination of teams that folded and put out a quality team.
The waiver/FA list could be more effective if, as Q said, managers are emailed every time a player is posted(everyone doesn't check the bulletin board regularly). This way managers have the opportunity to contact unsigned players as they are posted.
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We don't stop playing because we get old, we get old because we stop playing.
thanks quentin, john, pat and tommy for your replies.
the essential issues for me are that everybody knows (a) which teams fold as soon as possible, before players are scooped up by other teams; (b) who's available as free agents and (c) that managers are doing all they can to give guys chances to play, not leaving anybody out.
my draft idea, then, was to make sure everybody got a chance to play and that all teams, but especially those that finished lowest in the standings, might have chances to strengthen themselves.
the way to do all that, i imagined, was to have managers submit BIDS for free agents. the bids are no more than OFFERS to play and they're NON-BINDING. which makes it an unusual draft, i know.
tony grocki told me, accurately, that my draft had "no teeth" because it doesn't compel players to play with a team. he's right. but i think that would be counterproductive, and run against the grain of the league where players pay to play, to compel guys to do much of anything. this is, or mostly is, a player-driven league. guys should go where they want, as much as possible.
but the point here is that offers are being made to players, who can then choose to join a team or not. i'd imagine that could be flattering for a number of players; it can also offer a sense of security to many: at least, they may think, they may have more than one choice. there'd be a limited time, say, two weeks, for players to decide.
for managers, there are two benefits: one is that they can have a view of the whole age-division landscape, to see just who is out there; another is that they just might land a good player or two. the latter possibility is big.
some may wonder: would a good or even top player join a team with a middling or poor record? and i'd suggest that yes, that could happen especially if the top player isn't particularly happy with his current team or manager, or he's gotten word that he may be being replaced or his playing time will be diminished or he wants to try out a new position and doesn't have that chance on his current team. then the chance to keep his playing time and help lift a team up (while possibly wreaking some damage on his ex-team) could be a real lure. or it could be that he simply has more friends on the teams with the poorer record.
which leads me to the point that players like to go to teams where their friends are. that's true, but it's not universally so. for some guys, friends aren't the biggest issue: playing time or a chance to hit or pitch or maybe improve a team could be bigger ones. besides they can always share tales and compare notes with friends after games, and, often as not, they'll make friends on new teams.
i know the idea of a draft has a long and unsold history here, though i suspect that's because of its compulsory element.
now, if the notion of a non-binding draft leaves guys cold, then another option that may work is a simple and regularly updated list, starting in november, of which teams are folding and the names of free agents. that, as tony also noted, could be accomplished with a simple posting to the bulletin board.
thanks again, guys, for your readings and replies. i'd hope this topic might get some discussion at a board meeting.
-mike
-- Edited by mhart on Thursday 15th of December 2011 06:52:47 PM
Mike i think this is a great idea...but when i recently proposed that free agents go thru a draft rather than direct dealings, it went nowhere...i think where you improved on my suggestion is that the free agent could turn down the draft offer and then make his choice. At least your suggestion (I think?)gives the "bottom teams" (assuming the draft order is reverse of the standings) a chance to make theri poitch first and maybe add to their hopes to improve. I feel that a more balanced league is better for all.
...by the way, the Hawks are actively ion the market for any players who might like to look into whether they might enjoy an enhanced role on a team that will welcome help, especially on the mound.
Good debate and both sides have excellent arguments which I think I have been made fairly adeptly above... As this is my very first off-season participating and paying any attention whatsoever to the whole thing, I'm not sure I can add much except that new blood and fresh eyes are often good ~ and I am certainly paying very close attention to all of the processes...
And well, I don't mind telling you that I kinda like the way things have been going this off-season so far ~ though I do wonder how much of the off-season progress would have been made had my teams not had some pretty good post-season success, if still falling a lil shy of the goal...
I know we are standing pretty pat with the Yanks in the 45's as we had a little get-together last weekend and since several key players just turned 45 this past year, we are likely to be solid for several years ~ assuming we all stay healthy of course!
And as I am hoping the same to hold true for my 35 team next year, I see the key as recruiting from the pool of guys coming up as that's basically how the Yanks did it and also how I'm trying to do it in the 35's ~ even if I am painfully aware I am getting slower with age myself and may well put myself outta a job at the 35 level far sooner than I'd like to admit to myself...
The thing I am most intrigued by from my "outsider" perspective is that I see a LOT of older guys still playing in the younger divisions that obviously don't belong there and yet they not only think they do ~ but uh yeah, they genuinely believe in the their hearts that they somehow actually "help" the teams... Neverminding the fact I am not sure whether to laugh or cry, it's a clear truism that damn near everyone can see EXCEPT when it's themselves involved...
I'd just like to hope I'm at least a tad bit more self-aware of my skill set then that... I do know I felt like a flash of light in the 45's this past year... AND I felt like an equally slow fat-ass pig in the 35's...
So all this to say that I see it as rather simple really ~ Get the young studs coming into your league and improve dramatically... Or recruit guys from the older divisions and suffer the consequences...
Just the way it is I guess... And since we all gotta play within the same guidelines, it's all fair in love and war...
thanks again, guys, for your readings and replies. i'd hope this topic might get some discussion at a board meeting.
-mike
-- Edited by mhart on Thursday 15th of December 2011 06:52:47 PM
Mike - this was discussed, hashed, hashed again and then rehashed at the 45 and 55 meeting earlier this month .... and has been discussed at board meetings as well.
As i mentioned the consensus has always been that we run a league that runs the teams that join it... not the teams themselves.
Free agency was introduced to allow movement of the players as they see fit.
I like the idea of making available players (from folded teams or those who choose to broadcast availability) known to all managers .... and we can definitely consolidate the list of free agents to one location ..... this could certainly be expanded to include a workout to showcase skills (or lack of ).
A non binding draft has no teeth ... an open workout / accurate free agent list would accomplish the same thing.
My father's softball league has a draft and it works just fine. Are there personality conflicts? Certainly. But I've played on many teams in this league where personality conflicts have arisen either before, during or after a season and we do not have a draft.
The rationale to use "personality conflicts" as an excuse to not have a draft is a weak argument. There are plenty of reasonable arguments on both sides but a rise in "personality conflicts" ain't one of them.
johnc wrote:
As i mentioned the consensus has always been that we run a league that runs the teams that join it... not the teams themselves.
There are quite a few people who disagree with this theory.
Mike Hart is right--until there is a draft/waiver system, the rich get rich and the poor get children--players will always want to go to winning teams and say "I want to play with my friends"---we're all friends here--why all of a sudden isn't that guy friends with somebody? We should do away with this "friends" stuff---the league shouldn't allow "friends"--that just leads to cooking the books---the top teams shouldn't be able to sign a free agent until the bottom teams have waived him---and if they claim him--it should stick--it shouldn't be scuttled by some guy saying I want to play with my "friends"--that's BS---the important thing is competitive games--a better league that more players will enjoy--not just the "friends"---with a good free agent/draft/waiver system, then you'll see good baseball and an even playing field
Mike Hart is right--until there is a draft/waiver system, the rich get rich and the poor get children--players will always want to go to winning teams and say "I want to play with my friends"---we're all friends here--why all of a sudden isn't that guy friends with somebody? We should do away with this "friends" stuff---the league shouldn't allow "friends"--that just leads to cooking the books---the top teams shouldn't be able to sign a free agent until the bottom teams have waived him---and if they claim him--it should stick--it shouldn't be scuttled by some guy saying I want to play with my "friends"--that's BS---the important thing is competitive games--a better league that more players will enjoy--not just the "friends"---with a good free agent/draft/waiver system, then you'll see good baseball and an even playing field
The only problem I see with this argument is how do you force a guy who is paying for the priviledge to play baseball to play for a team he may not want to play for?
I'm all for more competitive balance but this seems extreme.
-- Edited by The_Hurricane on Tuesday 20th of December 2011 12:41:01 PM
The answer: You can't! Take your example from Ralph Marrero: quit belly-achin' about how you need to change the system for parity and go out and actively recruit! Ralphie did!
Well, yeah. But I was hoping for a little bit of constructive feedback, I guess. "quit yer belly-achin'" works in casual conversation but really doesn't help when trying to fix real problems.
-- Edited by The_Hurricane on Tuesday 20th of December 2011 12:43:38 PM
Sorry, Rob. You are, of course, correct! I attribute that to my serious lack of a filter. If something comes to my mind, it usually comes out of my mouth, and in this case, my fingers.
The whole idea of a rec league is to allow players to play with the team they want, especially if they are paying for entry into the league. If Mike Hart's "hybrid draft" makes all of the "slighted" managers feel better, then it is a good idea, but my feeling is that is all that it will accomplish. The real change will happen when those managers take an active roll in recruiting new players. Maybe go to some younger division games and scout and recruit there.
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