Hey Mario, I didn't think I'd add to this extended back-and-forth that runs, what?, three feet under another entry, but I thought your questions were important. So I thought I'd give it a try.
Your initial question is about setting up a league-wide draft beginning with 18-year-olds:
Yes, the 55 managers have talked about that and there's some sentiment that it's too bad the whole league didn't do it. That way, guys in every division would be used to it. But since we were only the 55 managers, we could control only our own division.
To take on your next question, was the draft set up to stop one winning team, namely the Giants?
No. It was set up to make every team in the division, including the Giants, better competitors and give everyone better competition.
It is true that we set the draft up after the Giants went something like 45-3 over three seasons, while at least three other teams, including my own Peppers, tended to struggle each year with records of about 4-11.
In setting up the draft, I don't know a manager who begrudged the Giants their success. In fact, most teams were excited to play them; they were terrific, they set the bar. The idea was to see how close we were to the bar; and maybe, on a good day, to see if we could vault it.
But having seen that, the other teams raised the question, "What do we have to do to match that? Where can we get the talent?"
So the draft became one response to a fact that every manager in the 55s, especially, knows: That the quality player pool is finite in the Capital District and surrounding areas.
I can't stress that enough. Virtually every manager in the division knows is that there aren't too many ex-athletes over 55 who, when asked to sprint 90 feet to beat out a rolling ball, will say, "Sure!" Rather they'll talk golf, fishing or retirement.
We haven't been able to pull in players for lack of effort. Last year, Twins manager Jim Edelman, for example, put ads in newspapers up and down the Hudson and into Massachusetts, trying to recruit guys. And two years ago, I traveled to Saratoga one Sunday in May, watched four games in their over-30 MSBL, passing out flyers that asked the older fellows in that league, or their older relatives, to consider coming to Albany to play 55 ball. Jim had some luck; I didn't.
My extended point is that weak teams and poor records in our division probably reflect as much the limited number of good players, and, in fact, players period, who are available to the 55 managers here.
A good thing about an annual draft is that it would offer all the 55 managers a steady, if small, stream of talent to strengthen their teams. Some of those players would choose to leave after a year; but others would likely choose to stay, which in fact happened with Jim's Twins team, which could mean those teams could soon move from weak to strong.
That takes me to the second reason for the draft: We wanted to make a stronger DIVISION for everybody. We didn't build the draft to defeat one team, or, only, to raise up others.
We did it to make better games for all of us.
In particular, we wanted to reduce or maybe even eliminate mercy-ruled games. We also wanted to avoid having the same two, three or four teams competing each year for the title, which seems to be a characteristic of the 33s and the 45s.
I know from experience, and postings here on the bulletin board, that guys hate to be a part of mercy-ruled games, on either side. What guys really like were and are taut games, where the outcome is in doubt till the last inning or two.
The draft seems to be sending us in that direction. John Reel recently sent the 55 managers this note: Before the draft, "in 2015 season we had 35% of our games called by run rule." But after the "2017 season, we had 9%."
And while the draft takes one year from a player's time with the friends he now enjoys playing with, he not only gets the chance to make new friends, he may also get the chance to help his new team climb from the standing's depths to or toward playoff contention.
Mike Kane, for example, certainly did that with the Whiz Kids. With Mike, and some additions his name could draw, the team moved from 7-8 one year to 12-3 and the championship game the next. A different, but maybe equally rewarding thing happened with my Peppers. We started the season 0-9 and then, thanks in many ways to help from Ron Massaroni, whom we drafted, we finished the season winning 5 of our last 6 games, and were two, 7th inning runs from winning all 6. In both cases, the presence of new, talented players lifted their teams considerably. That's got be as rewarding, in a different way, as winning a title.
So, Mario, is the draft perfect? No. Far from it. We've got things to fix. But you could argue that because of it, each team in the division, and the division as a whole, are all the better for it.
Wish this reply could have been shorter. Pleasant holidays to you.
-Mike
-- Edited by mikehart on Friday 22nd of December 2017 03:19:48 AM
Here is the thing Mike, that you neglected to address. Last year 3 elite players, who were age eligible, refused to join the division, due to the draft. This year that number will be growing quite a bit.
Last year one player was forced by the draft to play half his games an hour away (Kingston), so he didn't get enough games in to avoid the draft this year.
Is the "communism" that is this draft worth it, if the elite players refuse to take part?
May I add that had I not gotten a waiver a couple of years ago, and avoided the draft, I would have joined the growing numbers of players that flat out refuse to be told who they must play for and with.
The sheer number of players that would join this year, and in the near future, would prohibit just 2 or 3 teams from signing all of the talented players. There is just not enough playing time to go around, so these players will need to find other places to play, joining teams that might give them more playing time.
I don't see how the division can be improved by putting a draft in place that causes many of the best players available to avoid the division, and find their baseball elsewhere. Just my opinion.
Hi Mike - Your opinions are never "just an opinion." They're always more than that. Among other things, they're full of feeling for the game and the league, and I imagine that they carry sentiments of lots of players. So all to the good.
As I said, the draft isn't perfect and we need to wrestle with longstanding issues - among them how to balance guys' distaste for the draft - which all the 55 managers do understand - with a need to have as broadly competitive division as possible. The feelings that guys in the 45s have about not wanting the draft is easily matched by the managers who want to have tight games to the end, and avoid mercy-ruled games.
And your suggestion is, I'd guess, on target: that the large number of 45s who are eligible to move into the 55s is likely more than we may have room for now. John Reel is working on getting as close to exact figures as he can get for our next meeting; early guesses now suggest the number will be around 21 or 22.
And that may be more than the current 8 teams need. It's possible that seven of the eight current 55 teams will need anywhere from zero to 2 players. The Cards will likely need more. I may be wrong, but I understand that the Giants don't need any players. The Peppers' roster is at 15 or 16 (waiting on one guy), and we could live with that (though I'd never say no to a good pitcher or .a 390 hitter).
So what if 10, 12 or 14 guys are left over? Another issue to consider. As last year's draft showed, we're not about turning guys away, we need to find places for them.
John Reel has called a 55 managers meeting for Saturday Jan. 6th time and location not fixed yet, though we're talking about 10 am at the Railyard in Colonie. We'll likely post the exact date, time and location soon. Our meetings are open to any league members. Afterwards, I'm sure that one of us will post the minutes on the bulletin board.
John and I were trading emails a year or two ago and we agreed that the best 55 division, maybe the best any division, would have the top team finish the season with a 9-6 record and the bottom one 6-9, with everybody else sandwiched in between. That would suggest that nearly all the games would be competitive with very few mercy ruled games.
Mike H maybe they could consdier adding another team, with a roster of 15 then dispurse e the others through draft may be a way to keep the division at good competition I dont think mercy games is the only indicator of teams quality take the Bombers last year we run ruled the Giants 2x doesnt mean the Giants are a bad team heck it could have easily went the other way. Giants are a top talent team in the 45s as proven in past years successes and 55s. To force parity is difficult. And adding one or two players to a team in the draft make a little difference when teams get to keep their MAIN roster guys that are already established. Seems hypocritical forcing new guys to go thru a draft when teams were built without one. Its a difficult balance trying to keep competitive games or being gym class where u line up and count off 1-2 and all the 1s are in one team and 2s the other. I stated previously it will be hard pressed in the near future where the Bombers may want to move up as a team to the 55s if it is something we cant do then I am pretty sure most guys just wont play in the division. Something just needs to be revisited and guys opinions taken into consideration for the future. And ALL have a Merry Christmas and safe holiday. It is the spirit and season of giving. So hopefully Mike Girard GIVES us his ok to join the Bombers next year haha
-- Edited by Lexter10 on Saturday 23rd of December 2017 11:00:40 PM
Just so everyone knows, I made a proposal to the managers in the 55+ division relating to the draft and other issues recently raised on the bulletin board. My proposal has three main objectives.
The first part of the proposal is that the draft be suspended for at least one year. This would allow any player not playing in the division currently to join the team of his choice.
Anticipating a large influx of players into the division, the second part of the proposal is that I would manage an expansion team in the 55s. Players currently not in the division could - but would not be forced to - join the new team. Guys already in the division who are concerned that the influx of new, younger talent would reduce their playing time could also join the new team.
The third part of my proposal is in response to the managers' concern that the influx of 20 or more new players into the division might actually force some of the older guys out of the division. I have offered to start a new division which would be called the Platinum division (Jimmy K came up with the name). This division would be primarily aimed at players over the age of sixty. However, the division would also welcome players from the 55 division who are younger than 60 but want to get some more playing time. The details of the division would be adjusted to match the number of players interested but I would run the Platinum division much like I have run Fall Ball over the past three seasons. Players would be divided into equally balanced teams and we would play a seven-inning game, once a week.
Not sure how many guys would actually want to play on my team. But I do think that items #1 and #2 would be very popular.
Two managers from the 55+ division have presented their points in favor of the keeping the draft rules in place. I respect Mike Hart and Jim Edelman for using the bulletin board to promote their cause. However, the comments from players effected are strongly opposed to the draft. I hope that either the managers in the 55+ division and/or the Board of Directors will take steps so that the voices of the majority of players are heard and that their requests to remove the draft are honored.
Merry Christmas. We are one day closer to next season.
Mike Hart I guess what I was trying to say in my first response was simply that if parity was CDMSBL main goal then the draft should be in every division where the top 1-2 teams win it every year. But those divisions have never approached the need for a draft and Id believe its because guys want to play with their friends.
Thanks for your proposal, Don Ball. I think the managers in this division should take a long hard look at this. The evidence is overwhelming that the managers voting for this draft are in a serious minority, when considering the wishes of all of the ball players who are age eligible to play in the division. History has not been kind to those minorities that try to impose their will on the dissenting majorities.
The 45 division addressed the number of non-competitive games by creating an unbalanced schedule. The top teams play each other a bit more and the bottom teams also play each other a bit more. And all teams still play each other at least once. All teams are still seeded for the playoffs based on their regular season records. I don't keep the stats on this sort of thing, but it seems to me that the 45's had great success with this method. Each year the ranking of the teams may change based on player movement and previous years results, and the schedule is adjusted accordingly.
Would the 55 division consider postponing the draft this year, allowing unrestricted player movement and all eligible players to join a team of their choosing, and then creating an unbalanced schedule based on team rankings?
Steve S: I have a proposal which builds on the unbalanced schedule already in place; which I agree is a big step in the right direction. Perhaps some tweaking of that system would give the 55s that which the managers are trying to achieve and help the players avoid the draft they wish to avoid.
The 55's already have an unbalanced schedule in place. Have for at least 2 seasons. And, as has been noted earlier, the number of mercy ruled games have shrunk by 75 percent since the draft was instituted.
As long as the top 2 or 3 teams have, and continue to acquire the lion's share of the best pitchers, the league will be dominated by the teams with the strongest pitching staffs. Everyone knows that. If the draft is eliminated, the top pitchers coming out of the 45's will choose to go, the great majority of time, to the teams that are already strong. The top couple of teams will rarely see very challenging pitching during the regular season. Fine. I am not impressed.
It also has been noted several times that the only age division with a draft is the 55's. That is true. However, the 55's is as high as things go at this point. There is no place for guys to go above the 55's. There are a lot of guys who are well into their 60's and some in their 70's who still are playing. They want to play. Most have been part of the backbone that makes up the CDMSBL for many, many years. We must continue to find places for them. They are not young bucks looking to the 33's. They are not 33's looking to the 45's. They are not 45's looking to the 55's. They are now older ballplayers looking at only the 55's. Right now it's the end of the line. They are not the players they were 10-15 years ago but they certainly bring something of value to every team that will have them. And, they don't want to leave for a 2 or 3 team age 60 and over division (if it was formed) because that's just not a real league situation. They do not want to be marginalized. Would you ? Everyone has some pride. Do we just pull the plug on our friends and tell them you just aren't "elite" enough anymore and so go away ? Head for the cemetery. There is no easy answer to this issue. I certainly don't have the time to put together a new division. It would take an ultra extreme time investment. And, I live 55 miles away from Albany and plan on playing in the 55's for a while longer. I will not drop those gentlemen from our team. They've been with us for a long time, and when they are ready to leave, they will go. We will find a way. We will play baseball and do our damnedest to play well whatever the circumstances that are thrust upon us.
You're absolutely right Jim. No player should be pushed out of the 55 division to make room for group of "elite" players who all want to play together. I'm pretty certain the 55 Division will survive without these 17-20 "elite" players. Who are these "elite" players anyway? I've played in the 45 division for over 10 years and have yet to encounter an "elite" player. I realize some players are more talented than others. That said, the term "elite" is being thrown around way to freely in this conversation.
Mark Marshall (earlier in this conversation) suggested pretty much every guy on the Bomber's roster is an "elite" player. Really? You entered your "elite" team in the 2nd lowest division at the 2017 MSBL Fall Classic and got waxed. The same can be said of the "elite" 55+ team that traveled to the MSBL World Series this year. That team entered itself in the lowest possible division of that tournament the past two years and got eliminated both times. If you guys are so "elite" then enter your teams in the upper divisions of these tournaments and lets see how you fare against other elite teams. In the interim, lets take it easy with the use of the term "elite" in this conversation going forward.
Mike we didnt have our WHOLE Bomber team there, and I dont catagorize players as ELITE. we went 3-2 in pool play , won our first round playoff game lost the second. The upper divisions consist of 3-5 EX PRO ball players per team, fully sponsored and they pay players. Teams that win the rings all been together for years. 5-6-8-and some more. Some havent even won rings and been together for long time periods. This is our 2nd year. Its a learning expirience for players andnme as a coach. We are still perplexed why we didnt get a first round bye. They can give us all the reasons they want to but didnt make sense then or now. The additional rule of batting 14 players in every game also takes some getting use to. We played 63 innings of baseball in 85+ degree weather in NOVEMBER. Yea we arent happy with the result. And we all are competitive and want to win We are retooling and reloading for next year. But a bad day of Baseball in Florida is still way better than a great day of WORK IN NY We had a guy whos father got to see him play baseball for the first time in 25 years . We had another guy reconnect with a family memeber who they havent known about or seen and he got any chance to watch him play baseball. We didnt get WAXED we lost to a team who just had a better 2 -3 innings than us that day. They barely beat by a team in the semis a team we beat 20-6 in pool play. It is what it is we are playing a kids game and we are in our 50s. No one is getting their picture on a baseball card. Its all just fun have a safe and great holiday
Mr. Ferraro, we entered our 45 team in the only division we were able to enter in the fall classic. I believe we finished in the top 5 or 6 out of at least 14 teams. Far from qualifying as being "waxed" as you put it. And I can assure you most of us have never referred to ourselves as "elite."
Here is the problem with the 45 and 55 divisions in my opinion. Us 45 -50 year olds are 10 - 20 years younger than many of the players in the 45 division. So those players are not elite at all. They just actually belong in that division. If you want to fix the 55 division then make it mandatory for players 55 years old to join the 55 division. They can of course play in the 45 division but should have to play at least half of their games in the 55's and can not skip 55 division games to play 45 division games. JJ Janetsky. Thank You. I'll be here all night
JJ - The proposal that I have made to start a Platinum division relates to your point about older guys playing in the 45+ division. Most guys in our league like to play in two divisions. That way we can play one game during the week and another on the weekend. For players 55 and older the two divisions that offer that opportunity are the 45s and 55s. The Platinum division would provide guys; especially players over the age of 60, a chance to play a weekend game against others closer to their own age and abilities. If the 55+ managers approve my proposal, you may see guys 60 and over leaving the 45s for greener pastures and slower grounders!
The concept of the Platinum division has been discussed in various league circles for a few years now. Members of the board of directors. players in the 55s and now players in the 45s recognize the benefits of such a division. Since I posted my message about starting the division I have heard from players who are very enthusiastic about the idea. My experience with organizing fall ball the past few years - along with the league banquet this past spring - make me confident that I can get the division off to a great start in 2018.
Hopefully my proposals will be accepted and players from 45 to 75 can enjoy the benefits. Happy New Year.
Don Ball
-- Edited by Don Ball on Friday 29th of December 2017 04:29:42 PM
I want to apologize to the Bombers and the 55+ Phoenix World Series team for my recent post. The point I was attempting to make is that I dont think its right to turn the CDMSBL 55+ Division upside down to accommodate a group of talented players refusing to enter the draft. Its not fair to the guys that helped build that division from scratch. That said, I demonstrated extremely poor judgement in singling out two teams made up of players Ive played with and against over the years and have a huge amount of respect for. Im truly sorry.
We had a guy whos father got to see him play baseball for the first time in 25 years . We had another guy reconnect with a family memeber who they havent known about or seen and he got any chance to watch him play baseball. We didnt get WAXED we lost to a team who just had a better 2 -3 innings than us that day. They barely beat by a team in the semis a team we beat 20-6 in pool play. It is what it is we are playing a kids game and we are in our 50s. No one is getting their picture on a baseball card. Its all just fun have a safe and great holiday
